I read periodically in all my lists fanatic, venomous
vomits of antisemitism and anti-americanism dressed up
as anti-zionism, anti-imperialism and humanism.
They boil down to propaganda of Islamist Jihad, with all its atrocities including the preparations of the second
Holocaust.
This time my reaction is triggered by Chazwin's
non-pertinent comments of my historic study "JUDEO
CRISTIAN TRINITY"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/judeo_christian_trinity.html
, which I have posted slightly adjusted, as answer to his
post terminating it with:
<<<
On the face of it it seems that Christianity had the chance
to become a renewed Jewishness, a humane ideology of
Creativeness, of Justice and of Love.
Yet, it forfeited it and became instead one of the
most inhumane ideologies of ravage, of injustice and of
hatred. I endeavor to explain the reasons thereof in
"SON 0F MAN Fraudulent bedrock of our civilization"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/son_of_man.html

Without reading either of them and missing all their
essential historic and linguistic points, Chazwin
attacked this termination taken out of context, which
was like denigrating Einstein because he allegedly missed
a beat playing violin. By this occasion he got his
knife into the Jewishness as a belligerent, unjust and
cruel ideology and into me as alleged fanatic of Jewish
fundamentalism.
Now, my disdain of Jewish fundamentalism is clearly documented in two chapters of my site, which I have
indicated in the answer:
1."ISRAEL-PALESTINE AND THE PIGS"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/POLITICS/israel_palestine_and_th...
and
2."WHAT ISRAEL MEANS TO ME"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/israel.html

Yet, again Chazwin did not deign to read, let alone to
comment them, but preferred aggressive attacks ad
personam.

Now, writing is good, but doing is better. Just to keep
the record straight, especially for newcomers, I'll
briefly repeat some of my Israel-Palestine experiences.

I had 800 Arab students at the Haifa Uni, where, as part
of my computer supported conflict resolution research,
I have organized the Arab-Jewish workshop on ME conflict
compromise, which triggered the Israeli peace movement.
I still get posts from my former students seeking my
opinions and advise.

I was court martialed for having knocked out, in uniform
and on duty, a superior paratrooper officer indefense of
a Palestinian, whom he was abusing.

I got into serious trouble for defending legitimate
interests of Nazeret Arabs from orthodox Jewish
administrators.

I was involved in reception of survivors of the Black
September, who fled to the arch-foe Israel to avoid
to be murdered by their Arab brothers.

Briefly, I did in one day more for the Palestinians, than
all western "humane" back seat drivers, like Chazwin who,
when all is said and done, can only harm Palestinians by
supporting jihad-islamists, the worst enemies of
Palestinians.

I had patience with Chazwin, noticing that he isn't all there and had to be pitied rather than censured.
But one has to draw somewhere a line.

I draw it at idiotic prefabricated labels, such as
"Zionist Nazism", "Jewish fascist clubs", "Gazan
Holocaust" or "Palestinian genocide".

I don't feel compelled to defend, nor to justify my stand,
but, to keep the record straight, will show the fatuity
of the latter.

Both Intifadas made about 6000 Arab victims, which is of
course 6000 too much, but which represents HALF A DAY
of Auschwitz at its top performance, without counting
Treblinka, Sobibor, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, ...
The second, Polish, Warsaw Insurrection took 250 000 victims, in under 3 months, at the rate of both Intifadas
EVERY TWO DAYS.
Yet, in spite of the extreme brutality, we don't qualify
the crushing of Warsaw Insurrection as "genocide", because
it has been triggered by the Poles, who challenged the
Nazi army, knowing the risks. Many thinking Poles consider      
Bor Komorowski's order to attack the Germans as a crime
against the Polish nation and I share this view, without
of course justifying the German brutality.
Both Intifadas were triggered by Islamists, who knew the
risks, who openly endeavor to annihilate Israel and both
lost in 20 years the equivalent of a half day of
Auschwitz, or two days of Warsaw Insurrection.
In the light of these figures Israeli reaction appears
extraordinarily moderate, more moderate than that of any
occupying army fighting an insurrection in history.
One may regret the occupation, one may reasonably
condemn Israeli sporadic brutality or even crimes, but
talking about Palestinian genocide, misusing Intifadas'
victims for Jihad's propaganda insults Armenians,
Bangladeshis, the victims of Red Khmer, of Gulag, of Mao,
of the Holocaust and of Palestinian Intifadas themselves.

So, as I said above, I draw a line at the thoughtless
idiotic prefabricated labels, such as "Zionist Nazism",
"Jewish fascist clubs", "Gazan Holocaust" or
"Palestinian genocide".

I send already the posts of some of their addicts unread
to trash. Henceforth Chazwin will join them.

Georges

PS Having first hand experience in problems of the ME,
I may gladly discuss them with those willing to do it
in reasonable and rational terms.

I have recently been the recipient of George's vitriolic and
irrational prejudice and ignorance.
Despite his usual view that there are but two categories of humanity;
George and the "village idiots", his attack was "justified" and
accompanied by other unjustifiable and bigoted categories into which
his bile and largesse could be respectively placed: "Christian
culture" and "Jewish Culture".
His attack is confused and demonstrates what I belief to be the
world's greatest problem - the ignorance, stupidity, and bigotry that
accompanies "group think", and especially that sort of group think
that is based upon the irrational foundations of race and religion.

Here is the key point in which the "misunderstanding" began...

It is my contention that the ravages of Christianity of the the last
17-1800 years are mainly modeled upon the Jewish acts of violence so
well documented in the Old Testament in which god encouraged and
justifies numerous acts of violence in the name of the Jewish "race".
Umpteen times the British Empire justified its conquest and
enslavement of the world by putting aside the words reported of Jesus
on charity and peace, preferring the Old Testament for them to justify
their dirty work, with the bible in one hand and a gun in the other.
Far from "forfeiting" Jewish ideal, the history of Europe is the
embrace of those ideals.

Perhaps it was unwise of me to interject into the above statement
this:
 "Tell that to the people's of Sodom and G, Jericho, and the
Palestinians and any other the others that Jews shunned and excluded
from their little club of fascists." Not knowing (or particularly
caring - (thinking George a rational being) ) that George might have
irrational sympathies for what he bizarrely characterizes as "Jewish
culture" on the one hand and additionally has a subdermal hatred of
his other bizarre category "Christian culture" whatever they might be.
As a person who values and wishes for an extension of secular society
based on reason, and who could be called a "Jew" with as much
justification as a "Gentile", I,  was insulted and shocked to be
entered into the category "Christian Culture".
In response in the same post I challenged George if he thought that
"Jewish culture" were any different from "Christian". - "What more so
than Judaism? I think not! Injustice is enshrined in the
core beliefs of Judaism, at least SOME Christians pay lip service to
charity and justice.", I said.

The next exchange is where George's sense and rationalism went
completely off the rails: an example of the pernicious and unfortunate
effects that racism and religion can do the the workings of an
otherwise fine mind. He accuses me of embodying "Christian culture"
simply because I am as capable of identifying violence, bigotry
arrogance and stupidity in human culture....

Whilst I agree that Christian culture is violent, bigoted, stupid and
arrogant I doubt that you are big enough to admit the same for
Judaism
in which racism and violence is enshrined in its basic principles and
encouraged by its history.

But what is this "Christian culture" if nothing more than a bucket of
George's own bile? It is nothing more than a dustbin category into
which he has conveniently put all the evils of gentile history and
chucked me in too. But George forgets himself. He then forms the
"Jewish Culture" category into which he conveniently forgets the
crimes of the Jewish warriors of the bible and the terrorists that
formed the Jewish state in 1948. He then further compounds his
irrationality by adding:

Of course no such assertion was made by me - it was nothing more than
the rantings of a fool to put up a strawman. And as if to reflect by
projection his own stupidity in this statement he accuses me of making
an "unbeleivably stupid assertion".

My response:
I made no such assertion.
Post 1948 will do, and any other time in the past, when the Jews have
been in control of land, sought control of land or otherwise tried to
deprive others of theirs. I see no distinction between the behavior
of Jews in "Isreal" and that of the Gentiles who support them, except
that racial exclusivity is part of Judaism, whereas in Christianity
anyone from any "race" can act like a twat.

So what from George's vitriolic response am I to conclude?
For my part I do not see my self as part of either Jewish or Christian
culture, though the land in which I live is nominally Christian (as is
George's I would bet) and my ancestry and physical mutilation could
ascribe me as Jewish. I regard these categories as unworthy
descriptors; replete with far too many overlapping concerns and
prejudices; too vague; and like most such categories only of use to
the bigot to chastise,  vilify and persecute. I have chosen neither
category for myself as I have chosen to remove myself from the victim
mentality I see amongst Jews in which every characteristic of their
lives is all due to the Holocaust, even in the second and third
generation: a convenient object with which to blame inadequacies -
reassuring. Though this evil should never be forgotten it should not
be allowed to destroy lives and mentalities. Neither should it be used
to excuse bad behaviour and irrational thinking.

Judge by deed and not by word. The deeds of which we speak are well
documented, all members of the Abrahamic religions are bigoted and
violent at the core. We will never grow up as a species until we learn
to undo these delusions.

On Jul 3, 9:14 am, Georges Metanomski <zg...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Note how George's bigotry clouds his judgment. I made no direct
comment on his historic study, as I am want to judge my deeds and not
words. And the deeds of the members of the Abrahamic religions speak
volumes about their aggression and violence.

Dear oh dear Georgie - it was you that threw around the expletive my
friend, not I.
My attacks were on the deeds of what you laughingly called "Jewish
culture" and "Christian culture". I was merely pointing out that which
your perfect "objective" study failed to notice, that Christianity in
trampling across Europe and the Middle East found a friend in the
exploits of the Jews, authorised by god and so, in that book, found a
useful companion to justify their aggression and violence.
I can find no common ground with a shameless apologist who attempts to
paint any one of these religions in a pure light of peace and reason
based on semantic games. You are no different from the Muslims who
declare that Islam is a religion of peace.
If You REALLY want to insist that Christianity missed the chance to "
become a renewed Jewishness, a humane ideology of Creativeness, of
Justice and of Love." Then you will also have to insist that Judaism
missed the same chance during its history of conquest. The Old
Testament is the history of the Jewish people and their violence and
the violence of their god. Thus Judaism, Islam and Christianity are
not characterized by these qualities, which you hold so dear.
You might as well say that Christianity failed its own creed of
"turning the other cheek" and "loving thy neighbor".  I don't believe
the "fantasy world" construction of the Christians any more than
George's fantasy re-construction of Judaism. Judaism was never a
culture of Creativeness, Justice and Peace to anyone who was not in
their exclusive, racially defined club.
Religions set themselves apart and that is the root of conflict.

Trash, wont pick it up
Take them lights away
Trash, wont pick it up
Dont take your life away
Trash, dont try to take my life away

And please dontcha ask me if I hate you
If you dont know what I'm doin (whatcha know is)

Cus I dont know if I do
Cus the way that I feel with you
And take a lovers leap with you
And go to fairyland with you
Go to heaven blue with you
I just dont know if I do
I just dont know if I do
---break---
Uh, how do call your lover boy?

Garbage all.

On 3 Jul, 21:36, chazwin <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Georges, Chazwin et al,

Newcomer here, sorry where I may not follow group etiquette. I registered
about a month ago and was delighted by the level until "Amoram needs to go"
and the heated Georges-Chazwin argument, which my ignorance leads me to
believe are somewhat off-topic (?). As still an outsider my balance is that
none of you is winning or (apparently) managing to make partisans, rather
the whole group seems to be losing through this conflict. The realm of
belief and group belonging is certainly a delicate issue and you've both
made strong comments which have reached us all, maybe unpleasant to some.

Email writing can prove tricky, in a rush we can all write things we
otherwise wouldn't. Don't you think it's time to aim at solutions? I cannot
know, but it looks like you've been exchanging emails before this, could you
refer to previous relationship as a starting point?

If it serves to some purpose, glad to hold a calm (respectful) discussion on
the subject. The so-called "three religions of the Book" encompass both
admirable and horror stories, and despite not a believer, I try to learn
from each and their cast on culture and society. Not infrequently worst
excesses seem to lie with political manipulation of beliefs rather than core
faith principles.

Cheers,

Alex

-----Mensaje original-----
De: epistemology@googlegroups.com [mailto:epistemology@googlegroups.com] En
nombre de Georges Metanomski
Enviado el: jueves, 03 de julio de 2008 10:14
Para: epistemology@googlegroups.com
Asunto: [epistemology 8884] Re: Trash

I read periodically in all my lists fanatic, venomous
vomits of antisemitism and anti-americanism dressed up
as anti-zionism, anti-imperialism and humanism.
They boil down to propaganda of Islamist Jihad, with all its atrocities
including the preparations of the second
Holocaust.
This time my reaction is triggered by Chazwin's
non-pertinent comments of my historic study "JUDEO
CRISTIAN TRINITY"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/judeo_christian_trinity.html
, which I have posted slightly adjusted, as answer to his
post terminating it with:
<<<
On the face of it it seems that Christianity had the chance
to become a renewed Jewishness, a humane ideology of
Creativeness, of Justice and of Love.
Yet, it forfeited it and became instead one of the
most inhumane ideologies of ravage, of injustice and of
hatred. I endeavor to explain the reasons thereof in
"SON 0F MAN Fraudulent bedrock of our civilization"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/son_of_man.html

Without reading either of them and missing all their
essential historic and linguistic points, Chazwin
attacked this termination taken out of context, which
was like denigrating Einstein because he allegedly missed
a beat playing violin. By this occasion he got his
knife into the Jewishness as a belligerent, unjust and
cruel ideology and into me as alleged fanatic of Jewish
fundamentalism.
Now, my disdain of Jewish fundamentalism is clearly documented in two
chapters of my site, which I have
indicated in the answer:
1."ISRAEL-PALESTINE AND THE PIGS"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/POLITICS/israel_palestine_and_th....
html
and
2."WHAT ISRAEL MEANS TO ME"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/israel.html

Yet, again Chazwin did not deign to read, let alone to
comment them, but preferred aggressive attacks ad
personam.

Now, writing is good, but doing is better. Just to keep
the record straight, especially for newcomers, I'll
briefly repeat some of my Israel-Palestine experiences.

I had 800 Arab students at the Haifa Uni, where, as part
of my computer supported conflict resolution research,
I have organized the Arab-Jewish workshop on ME conflict
compromise, which triggered the Israeli peace movement.
I still get posts from my former students seeking my
opinions and advise.

I was court martialed for having knocked out, in uniform
and on duty, a superior paratrooper officer indefense of
a Palestinian, whom he was abusing.

I got into serious trouble for defending legitimate
interests of Nazeret Arabs from orthodox Jewish
administrators.

I was involved in reception of survivors of the Black
September, who fled to the arch-foe Israel to avoid
to be murdered by their Arab brothers.

Briefly, I did in one day more for the Palestinians, than
all western "humane" back seat drivers, like Chazwin who,
when all is said and done, can only harm Palestinians by
supporting jihad-islamists, the worst enemies of
Palestinians.

I had patience with Chazwin, noticing that he isn't all there and had to be
pitied rather than censured.
But one has to draw somewhere a line.

I draw it at idiotic prefabricated labels, such as
"Zionist Nazism", "Jewish fascist clubs", "Gazan
Holocaust" or "Palestinian genocide".

I don't feel compelled to defend, nor to justify my stand,
but, to keep the record straight, will show the fatuity
of the latter.

Both Intifadas made about 6000 Arab victims, which is of
course 6000 too much, but which represents HALF A DAY
of Auschwitz at its top performance, without counting
Treblinka, Sobibor, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, ...
The second, Polish, Warsaw Insurrection took 250 000 victims, in under 3
months, at the rate of both Intifadas
EVERY TWO DAYS.
Yet, in spite of the extreme brutality, we don't qualify
the crushing of Warsaw Insurrection as "genocide", because
it has been triggered by the Poles, who challenged the
Nazi army, knowing the risks. Many thinking Poles consider      
Bor Komorowski's order to attack the Germans as a crime
against the Polish nation and I share this view, without
of course justifying the German brutality.
Both Intifadas were triggered by Islamists, who knew the
risks, who openly endeavor to annihilate Israel and both
lost in 20 years the equivalent of a half day of
Auschwitz, or two days of Warsaw Insurrection.
In the light of these figures Israeli reaction appears
extraordinarily moderate, more moderate than that of any
occupying army fighting an insurrection in history.
One may regret the occupation, one may reasonably
condemn Israeli sporadic brutality or even crimes, but
talking about Palestinian genocide, misusing Intifadas'
victims for Jihad's propaganda insults Armenians,
Bangladeshis, the victims of Red Khmer, of Gulag, of Mao,
of the Holocaust and of Palestinian Intifadas themselves.

So, as I said above, I draw a line at the thoughtless
idiotic prefabricated labels, such as "Zionist Nazism",
"Jewish fascist clubs", "Gazan Holocaust" or
"Palestinian genocide".

I send already the posts of some of their addicts unread
to trash. Henceforth Chazwin will join them.

Georges

PS Having first hand experience in problems of the ME,
I may gladly discuss them with those willing to do it
in reasonable and rational terms.

On Jul 3, 3:04 pm, "Alex  P. Real" <alex.pr...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Don't be put off. George can get a little opaque at times and the
current little tiff between him and I was based on me hitting a raw
semitic nerve of George's. If he wants to sulk and trash my posts then
so be it. But I'm sure he will be big enough to read them and see
where the discussion went off the rails.
Personally I quite enjoy the to and fro as it is part of the reason I
contribute.
So get involved!

It's probably best not to think of this as a "group" as such. There is
no particular agenda or aim. It's just a forum to try out ideas on
other people - the more controversial the better in my opinion.
I can see why the "AMA has to go" might put you off. I am to blame for
that. I could not fathom his writings and wondered whether anyone else
did - often groups are plagued with SPAMMERS and TROLLS. MY headline
was inflammatory but I hoped to wake up this (often sleepy NG).
 There are some clever people who contribute here so why not try a
posting of your own?

 The realm of

Georges,
As someone whom you have.... relegated to trash many months ago.....
as well as whom you have.... Spit upon... in word if not in deed. I
don't know what to tell you.... I definitely think that you do tend to
go A WHOLE LOT OVERBOARD in your reactions to what YOU CONSIDER to be
sleights against Jews.
Me, I have "railed" against ZIONIST RACISTS... and I am morally PROUD
OF IT.... So, does the  ZIONIST RACIST label get the same "contempt"
from you as the ZIONIST NAZIISM label? Apparently, considering the
"welcome" that I got from you months ago.
George, if you read this, I want to reiterate my words to you of that
time. I admit the historic facts of the WWII Holocaust and I condemn
all of those historic attrocities. But I have to also admit and
condemn the attrocities committed upon the Palestinians by the Zionist
movement and what has become the Jewish State of Israel.
You say in your words that you also condemn "many" of those Zionist
attrocities.... But Georges, let's be clear, for all of your own
personal moderation (or your self-appraised opinion of it), in my own
and maybe in other people's opinion.... your "moderation" toward the
Palestinians is still too harsh. That's the best way I can put it. I
do not think that you go far enough in your attitude or understanding
of the Palestinian side of things....That's my own opinion of it, of
course.
nominal9
So, will you read and respond to me, Georges?... Or am I still
relegated to "trash".
Think about it... Just how "moderate" or understanding can you truly
be.... if you relegate people to "trash".... But then, I myself
relegate such "Censoring People" to my own "NOMINAL9 CENSORSHIP HALL
OF SHAME"... an eternity in Hell with their heads "literally" with
their heads stuck up their asses  and with shit for brains....just as
they have lived "figuratively" in life..... You are already made that
list, you know, Georges.
nominal9

On Jul 3, 4:14 am, Georges Metanomski <zg...@yahoo.com> wrote: